Apache OpenOffice (AOO) Bugzilla – Issue 26828
Remove obnoxious requesters w.r.t. file formats
Last modified: 2005-05-23 12:09:01 UTC
I claim the requesters that complain when I try to save in Word format should simply be removed. They only serve to create FUD about Open Office. Requesters are a nightmare when teaching and helping non-geek users. One of the file format requesters have a pretty fancy wording + three(!) choices. It is much better that some data loss occurs for advanced users in some extreme cases, than to hazzle the common user. Øyvind
I prepose that an option is added in the options dialog to remove this prompt. I am not too sure how well completly removing this would be... I will bring this issue to the attn of the rest of the qa team.
O.K. There are basically 2 ways of solving this problem. First may I point out that if MS Word is your defult file format then no warning should be displayed when you save to it/close. Danny R. Faught suggested: "I agree with what I perceive the request to be. Here's how I would word it: 1) Create a new text document. 2) Save the document in one of the Word formats (perhaps any non-OOo format). 3) Close the document. I get a dialog that says "Saving in external formats may have caused information loss. Do you still want to close?" If the user is going to be warned about this, it needs to be when they choose to save in a non-native format. Ideally, it would say exactly what formatting would change that the document actually uses, and then it would display the file exactly how it would look after importing the document. Seeing the warning about something not directly associated with closing, the way it works now, is confusing. I'd rather not have a warning at all. Most of the time when people save in a different format, they know exactly what they're doing. One other possibility - the program could track whether the file was also saved in OOo format. I often will save in OOo format, then also export to another format in order to send it to someone else. No need to warn the user if the same source file is already saved as an OOo document. But again, the easist fix in the short term would be to remove this warning dialog entirely." and I agree with this, but I would suggest that: - a warning is made when they choose to SAVE (not close) in a non-native format. -- If possible say what formating would be lost. / display a preview at the users request? -Recomend that a copy is saved as OOo, just in case? unless it just has been, then no warning. All warning boxes should have a tick box "Never show this warning again" and should have choices in the options dialog box to chose if warnings on/off. May I also say that this is not a priority 1 (fatal crash, makes OOo useless in some respect, kills the world stock market, armageddon, etc) so I have set it to priority 3. Please vote for this issue and encourage others to vote if you feel this is important.
HI->CJ: I heard somethink like you are involved in this case.
Getting up on my soapboax now. This is not compulsory reading and I won't take offense if you flame me or ignore it altogether. 'nuff said: The solution is to get rid of these requesters alltogether. Put them out of their missery. This is something M$ invented to scare the bejeezes out of those daring to save in a non M$ format. They cause a lot more harm (FUD) than good. They are not in the OpenOffice spirit. If a concensus can be reached that these requesters are to be removed then the change should be trivial, I'm sure. :-) Telling the user that he'll loose some spreadsheet information when saving in text format is just plain silly. Saving in JPEG looses a bit of info. Saving in M$ Excel might loose you something(haven't figured out what yet). I have a spreadsheet where I can't figure out what openoffice feature I use that isn't persistable in M$ excel. In fact, I get these silly requesters just loading the spreadsheet and quitting *without* making any changes. If the decision is to keep these requesters, where will the discussion, use- cases, scenarios, bug-fixes, improvements, etc. end? These requesters is a pit of bottomless missery: "Should OpenOffice display a requester when as soon as I use an open office feature that is not saveable in the format of the current spreadsheet or only when I save?" "Could you make a complete list of OpenOffice features that are not persistable in format X?" In fact, I have nothing nice to say about these requesters at all. So there! >But again, the easist fix in the short term would be to remove this warning >dialog entirely." Go team! :-) BTW, I *love* OpenOffice! It is a great product! Otherwise I wouldn't care about this. Øyvind
I know this warning is annoing, but for users who aren't aware of what they are doing when saving for example in TXT format it is helpfull. For oo.o 2.0 we've changed the defaults and the wording of the warning. It might make sense to have a "Do not show this dialog again" check box. This option would help those finding this warning annoing, but also helps users who aren't aware of the fact that saveing in different fileformats might causes data loss. CJ->MAV: What do you think about the idea of having an option on the dialog where users are asked in which file format they want to save?
Normally I wouldn't hazzle you about this, but I strongly urge you to reconsider. >I know this warning is annoing, but for users who aren't aware of what they >are doing when saving for example in TXT format it is helpfull. > >This option would help those finding this warning annoing, but also helps >users who aren't aware of the fact that saveing in different >fileformats might causes data loss. I claim that users who aren't aware of this: - don't care - don't want to know - don't read requsters with complicated wording. They look for the nearest "Cancel/No" button. Failing that they press ESC. - hate requesters. Here they are slammed with two requesters. One of them with three(3!) options "Yes, No, Cancel" :-) JPEG causes losses. Do you see any warnings when saving in JPEG instead of BMP format? If I load an Excel spread sheet, make some changes, then isn't the only reasonable behaviour to purge the document of non-Excel file-format persistable information? >CJ->MAV: What do you think about the idea of having an option on the dialog >where users are asked in which file format they want to save? This is already available from the "Save As" requester. Isn't that plenty? Øyvind
On my soapbox again: If this sort of feature can't be implemented flawlessly, then it is better left out. The current implementation is not product quality. Øyvind
The warning on closing will be removed as Danny R. Faught has suggested. On storing, if user stores his document and explicitly selects a filter no warning will appear. The warning will appear only in case user introduces any change to a document opened from a file in alian format and either presses save button or selects "File/Save" entry. If the user accepts the storing to the alian format changes the document and saves it again, no warning will appear. This is exectly how OOo1.1.1 behaves. The only difference is that the error message is changed according to the issue 26282
>The warning on closing will be removed as Danny R. Faught has suggested. Super! >On storing, if user stores his document and explicitly selects a filter no >warning will appear. The warning will appear only in case user introduces any >change to a document opened from a file in alian format and either presses save >button or selects "File/Save" entry. IMHO, this is telling the user too late. The user should be told up-front which features are unpresistable in the alien format. >If the user accepts the storing to the >alian format changes the document and saves it again, no warning will appear. >This is exectly how OOo1.1.1 behaves. The only difference is that the error >message is changed according to the issue 26282 So, if I open an excel file, make changes that are persistable in Excel file format, I should see no requester? If so, great. I still think just removing the requester would be better: - If I get this requester, how do I find out what change I made to make OpenOffice put up the requester? - If OpenOffice incorrectly identifies some change as non-persistable in Excel format, then I'm stuck with the requester until OpenOffice 3.0. Øyvind
As I understand, the idea of the warning is not to notify the user which features are not supported by the alian format but to let him know that current saving is going to be done in alian format that does not support all the formatting. If user opens a document from a file in alian format ( Excel for example ) does some changes and activates saving, the warning will appear. The changes are not investigated whether they contain formatting that is not supported by the filter of not. Such an investigation would be a new feature and I doubt that it will be implemented without real need just because it should be implemented for all the alien filters then. As it was mentioned already a chechbox "Never show this warning again" could help. CJ have also mentioned that the warning could be switched off by using configuration. But I agree with CJ that this is probably not something for OOo2.0.
I'm sure you guys are sick and tired of me by now, but here goes. >As I understand, the idea of the warning is not to notify the user which >features are not supported by the alian format but to let him know that current >saving is going to be done in alian format that does not support all the >formatting. Why the requester at all then? >If user opens a document from a file in alian format ( Excel for example ) does >some changes and activates saving, the warning will appear. The changes are not >investigated whether they contain formatting that is not supported by the >filter of not. Such an investigation would be a new feature and I doubt that >it will be implemented without real need just because it should be implemented >for all the alien filters then. If you guys who *wrote* OpenOffice can't figure out what features are not persistable, then what possible hope does the user have of figuring this out? The requester is useless, he still has to save and then load back in and try to guess what got lost. >As it was mentioned already a chechbox "Never show this warning again" could >help. CJ have also mentioned that the warning could be switched off by using >configuration. But I agree with CJ that this is probably not something for >OOo2.0. Do everybody and especially yourselves a favour. Remove the requester entirely. Put it out of its missery! There is no "damage" done if the user does not read this requester. There is no need for this requester and the current implementation is terrible. Off with its head! I'm sure I speak for the silent majority! :-) Øyvind
The filter related warning that appeared on closing is removed, I have used a standalone issue 32675 to integrate the change to OOo2.0 cws. > Why the requester at all then? May be I misunderstand the question, but as I wrote already "to let him ( user ) know that current saving is going to be done in alian format that does not support all the formatting". Just an example, if user tries to overwrite a file he gets a request whether he really whants to overwrite it, but he is not provided with the information about difference of the original file to the new version. It is just a conformation that the user knows what he is doing. The same situation with the filter warning. > If you guys who *wrote* OpenOffice can't figure out what features are not > persistable, then what possible hope does the user have of figuring this out? It is not about figuring wich features are supported by the office format and are not supported by the alian format. It is about providing this information through warnings, that would require a new code and localized text for each of the alian filters as I have mentioned. It could be done, but would require a lot of additional resources. So I doubt that it will be implemented without a strong request.
>May be I misunderstand the question, but as I wrote already "to let him ( >user ) know that current saving is going to be done in alian format that does >not support all the formatting". > >Just an example, if user tries to overwrite a file he gets a request whether >he really whants to overwrite it, but he is not provided with the information >about difference of the original file to the new version. It is just a >conformation that the user knows what he is doing. The same situation with >the filter warning. The problem lies in that this requester will *never* be implemented properly because it is not cost-effective to do so. OpenOffice will never be able to tell whether or not a user changed something that is not persistable in Excel format and thus not display this requester if it isn't necessary. Also, it is a requester that is almost always superfluous(i.e. Excel will store the users spreadsheet fine). The net result is that loading an Excel spreadsheet, changing something and saving, will *always* display this requester. Since this requester can never be made to behave acceptably(not cost effective), it should not be implemented. The only "cost" to doing so is that the user isn't warned when he tries to save in a format that is unable to save *all* the information. Excel will always have features that OpenOffice does not have, and vica versa. I'm repeating myself: this also creats FUD(fear, uncertainty and doubt) about using OpenOffice to edit Excel spreadsheets. Hence my conclusion: remove the requester entirely. There is much to be gained, and very, very little to be lost. Øyvind
Another confusing and potential harmful effect of the current requester: ".... Do you want to save your changes using OpenOffice 1.0 Spreadsheet format. [Yes] [No] [Cancel]" If the user by accident, or because he does not quite understand the question presses "yes" and "save", he'll have saved the document with *a different name*. (The requester is pretty heavy reading and it has *three* choices.) The next time he loads his document all his changes have "disappeared" because he does not realise that he saved the document with a different suffix. Windows can make this problem worse, because there will be two documents which *only* differs in suffix. Windows XP has a "feature" that it will hide the suffixes of files when displayed in file requesters/explorers. Øyvind
MAV->CJ: Sending to you as discussed.
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Will these requesters disappear if I change Tools->Options to "Always save as Microsoft XXX"? If yes, then the workaround is to set openoffice to always save as Microsoft format. Øyvind
Rejoice! It seems like this requester has been removed in the latest code snapshot. Is that intentional? Close bug as fixed? Øyvind
The latest snapshot being? Will check in the OOo 2.0 Beta. (and yes, the qa person has returned from the dead)
1.9.79
I suggest that this PR can be closed, since it is possible to tell OO not to show the requester again.
CJ: Closing issue, because behavior changed.