@dogzdik:
Can we summarize your request: "OOo should embed all used font sets into document"?

Before you file further issues or post again here, please read our guidelines on
<http://qa.openoffice.org/issue_handling/pre_submission.html> and  
<http://www.openoffice.org/bugs/bug_writing_guidelines.html>!

I agree, especially for presentations it's really annoying that they mit look
tifferent on a different PC with missing resources, but this issue cant be fixed
easily: 

Today it's a general practice that font sets generally belong to OS/PC, not to
the application or the document; there are only very few exceptions where fonts
will be embedded more or less "read only"  into PDF documents and for similar
document use.

It would be really difficult to respect licenses for fonts if you embed them;
save the new document as a template, and you have it available on the new PC for
OOo without limitations. 

This issue is a DUP of Issue 20370, and I can't see any new arguments that might
be a reason to revise the WONTFIX decision there. 

*** This issue has been marked as a duplicate of 20370 ***

OpenOffice breaks not any law, giving ability to save a document with its fonts
embedded in

In fact, users may choice to embed or not, since OpenOffice does not embed
automatically any kind of font, is the user that embed and he is the only
responsible if he/she embed fonts he can't embed

I wonder of your (and other moderators) behavior, why OpenOffice must not have a
key-feature like this? 

100% agree with armandillo.

OOo should have a feature like that.

it wouldn't be illegal at all

This is NOT resolved.

Lets play a little game here: 

So we will just do a search for FREE FONTS and I'll provide a sample of the
first few results:

Go GOOGLE: (search terms) -- free fonts --

Results:

Results 1 - 100 of about 9,420,000 for free fonts. (0.40 seconds) 

Sponsored Links

   1.
      Free Fonts CD
      Modern, cursive, ethnic, retro font
      & more on incredible CD - Free!
      www.CDEarth.com
   2.
      Free Fonts CD
      Over 1000 greatest fonts
      on 1 incredible CD - Free!
      FreeSoftwareCD.net


Search Results

1001 Free Fonts - Download Free Fonts for Windows and Macintosh
1001 free fonts offers a huge selection of free fonts. Download free fonts for
Windows and Macintosh. Digital signature fonts service available.
Calligraphy - Handwriting - Modern - 3D
www.1001freefonts.com

Free Fonts - Free Font Download - Cool Fonts
See our amazing collection of free fonts and free dingbats. With over 8000
freeware fonts, you've come to the best place to download fonts. ...
www.urbanfonts.com/


Free Fonts search and download
Free Fonts search and download. free-fonts.com offers a searchable database of
55.000 OpenType, TrueType and PostScript Type 1 fonts from Adobe, Linotype, ...
www.free-fonts.com/


For me: Every program I have ever owned (paid for) and used (free) I have
generally scanned them for images and fonts - to add to my own database.

I have also downloaded stacks of free stuff from the web.

I image that many other people would be doing the same or similar things.

I also image that many other people would be using other programs and have the
fonts that came with those programs installed into the windows common fonts
database.

So free and or legal use of their "own fonts" is their or OUR own business.

I use the Open Office Draw to wholly or in part or in conjunction with other
software to create engineering drawings, posters and photographic works - along
with books, and manuals and standard business and personal documents. 

The problem I have is when I use any of the Open Office programs to create
"documents or works" and when I transfer the "document" or "works" to a
different computer OR just as bad - which makes me look like an idiot; and it
also means that I cannot use Open Office programs to submit "works" or
"assignments" or things that earn me an income in the native OO formats; because
all of the fonts I have used in the creation of those works, are NOT embedded in
the works.

And so when I transfer my works to another computer or I send them to another
person who doesn't have the same font set on their computers, the document
reverts from clever and specific layouts, with specific fonts, quite often with
specific sizes, character, word and line spacing - 

So instead of seeing 400 point Le Grande Artistic Flourish as a headline font on
a A1 poster, I get times new roman 12 point font.

That makes whatever I create worthless. 

I can't use it / make or modify it across a number of computers.

I can't send it to other people for evaluation, modification, marking or sales. 

It makes what ever I create as a stand alone work, on a stand alone computer
that ONLY works on that specific computer.

When this software makes all of my hard work WORTHLESS - then we have a problem.

So Mr Rainer Sir - I do NOT agree with any of your arguments.

Because not only does this cause ME a MAJOR PROBLEM - it also causes MILLIONS OF
OTHER PEOPLE all around the world - the exact same problem.

Basically sending "defective works" to other people - is much like sending them
malware that instead of deleting their programs on their computer - it deletes
the contents and formatting of the documents that they use on their computer.

It is NOT an acceptable outcome for you to say that this is OK and that the
issue is resolved.

I and millions of other people all around the world, want the embedding of the
fonts used in that documents and works that WE create, to be the default state;

So that when WE save and send or move that document around, or archive it for
all posterity - it is, and it will remain in the exact same state that WE
produced it in.

Embedding of the fonts used in the creation of the "works" or documents, is a
very important issue.

In fact for the issues of interoperability from different systems and different
locations and with different people and departments, failing to embed the fonts
used cripples the distribution of the document creators works.

IF the "works" and documents need to be archived as historical records, failing
to embed the documents makes them worthless.


So Mr Rainer, this issue is NOT resolved and it's only going to be resolved when
the embedding of the total format used in the documents and works, is the
defacto standard for all Open Office programs.

To quote you Mr Rainer.

"Today it's a general practice that font sets generally belong to OS/PC, not to
the application or the document; there are only very few exceptions where fonts
will be embedded more or less "read only" into PDF documents and for similar
document use. 

It would be really difficult to respect licenses for fonts if you embed them;
save the new document as a template, and you have it available on the new PC for
OOo without limitations".


You seem to forget Mr Rainer, that I and everyone else who owns a PC, or has
paid for others to use them (the government):

We have paid others to build our PC's and WE have PAID for the software that WE
are using, including the fonts in them.

We also BUY other fonts and ALSO harvest FREE fonts to use on our PC's with the
SOFTWARE that we have PAID FOR.

It's NOT YOUR PLACE Mr. Rainer, to tell us that we cannot embed the fonts that
we own in the software that we paid for or not, use; to carry through all time,
with the works that we create.

 

@dogzdik:
You only see a small part of th "real world": I have several tools (CAD, PLC
programming,...) with various commercial tools and libraries (and at least one
"commercial" true type font, for what I signed that I will not distribute it
without permission), and it's completely clear, that all my creations with those
tools will work on other computers only, if all necessary tools are available on
that computer, and most of them can not be distributed freely (embedded) because
of their license. Those "tools" have to be bought and licensed for each PC
seperately. 

Your statement does not contain anything new, everybody knows about those free
fonts (free office suites), but the question whether someone can claim some
"copyright" or other "intellectual property" for fonts is not finally solved at
all. So I see your some greenness concerning license problems. If enough laws
and court of justice will have denied copyrights for fonts, we will have a new
situation and will have to think about arguments in Issue 20370, but currently I
do not see such a new situation.

May be, before you tell others how all those things work, your should learn how
all those things work? For example, you should read the Issue Tracker Guidelines. 

But unless to all that legal questions and even if you have difficulties to
understand that, this issue still is a DUP of Issue 20370, where much more
skilled arguments concerning chances and risks of such a feature have been
written.If you have new arguments, post there and do not split the discussion
into various issues

*** This issue has been marked as a duplicate of 20370 ***

Mr. Rainer.

To quote you:

"I have several tools (CAD, PLC programming,...) with various commercial tools
and libraries (and at least one "commercial" true type font, for what I signed
that I will not distribute it without permission)"

Mr Rainer this is YOUR problem, you got YOUR software, YOU signed the YOUR
contract - none of us did.

So therefore I nor anyone else are going to allow you to bind US to YOU and YOUR
problems. 



I know that if I create a document, that probably in the next 10 years I will
probably go through 2 or 3 more computer systems, perhaps some different
operating systems and probably much different and or most certainly upgraded
software.

If the documents I create today using Open Office, cannot embed the fonts used
in them.

Then they are of very limited use to me.

The documents that I create today and archive for later use; If I cant open them
in a state of exactly how they were created, then they are no good for archiving
either.

As it stands, I can't even move the documents I create to or from either of the
computers I own - because they are not embedding the fonts that I own and or
have downloaded as freeware.

So now your telling me and everyone else on the face of this planet, who use
Open Office, that WE must accept this situation; because of the problems that
YOU as an individual have created for yourself?

I don't think so.

priorizing this issue as feature request and as P3

Open Office, that low flying wonder for the technically modest, has a gaping
gash of a flaw. It does NOT, I repeat NOT, embed the fonts used in the document,
in the document.

This means that if and when you create a document or drawing or spread sheet
(etc.,) with a specific font, or fonts, sometimes with specific letter, word and
line spacing, that when you save that "project" as a MS word format document OR
even worse, in one of the native "OPEN OFFICE" document formats., that the fonts
and layouts used in the creation of ones products, are NOT retained in the product.

So when, you change computers to one that doesn't have the stockpile of fonts
that one has on ones computer of origin, like from work to home or vis versa, or
you email to to a friend, coworker, publisher, supervisor or to ones school
etc., unless they have the exact same fonts as used in the creation of the
document, on their system, then ones "impeccable artwork" in a range of fonts
and layouts, then defaults to 12 point Arial (or whatever).

So ones fabulous A1 sized Circus Side Show poster with the "Super Fabulous Size
494 point font" defaults to Arial 12 point font - when the next person who opens
it, rendering the work absolutely worthless.

What is worse, is that when the work is archived or when changes computer
systems, as may occur 2 or 3 or 4 times over 10 or so years, and one may lose or
misplace ones font collection or if it's left behind in "the records" for others
to retrieve at a later date, then it is absolutely worthless as well.

The "work" created using the Open Office (.org) software, IS the combination of
the fonts and layouts and images etc.

But because the people who think they know it all, and who have the sayso over
it all, think that people creating their own works on their own systems from
their own font collections for their own use, ought not to be able to
permanently KEEP the contents of those works within the work it's self, then the
Open Office software is not "OPEN". 

If I want to write a book, with dropped caps or replications of rare text or
translations using the original "ancient font" and the modern translation of
that in a modern font, - then as soon as I move that "book" off that system, it
all defaults to Arial 12 point. No foreign languages, no artistic deriviatives
or creations - all wiped because of the non embedding. 

Open Office - despite what the "Spiel" on the site says, it's not an open
format, it's a restrictive and crippling format. 

It means that whatever is created on a specific computer at a specific point in
time, with the specific fonts on that computer, stays bound to that situation.

And despite the following claims, it's not archival grade software.

http://why.openoffice.org/

"OpenOffice.org 3   is the leading open-source office software suite  for word
processing, spreadsheets, presentations, graphics, databases and more. It is
available in many languages  and works on all common computers. It stores all
your data in an international open standard format and can also read and write
files from other common office software packages. It can be downloaded and used
completely free of charge for any purpose. "

It doesn't WORK on all common computers, and it cannot read and write from other
common office software packages - because it does NOT embed the fonts and the
layout of the fonts, as produced in the original document; and because it
doesn't do that, it won't save the OO documents into other document types, in
the original layout with the original fonts.


http://why.openoffice.org/why_gov.html

Data is safe
Freedom of Information Acts require that the documents you create today will be
accessible years in the future. OpenOffice.org 3 is the first software in the
world to use ISO approved file formats as its default. It also has the ability
to create pdf files if you need to publish information in a standard 'read only'
format. If you already have (possibly unlicenced) office software,
OpenOffice.org 3 should be able to read your old files. 

The documents created with Open Office today, will only be accessible in the as
produced form (think font types, sizes = words to a page and amount of pages
etc) years from now, IF the fonts used in the creation of the document, are
available or known to the person opening it on another system. That may be 5, 10
or 50 or even 100 years from now.

So much for the archival value of Open Office documents.


http://why.openoffice.org/why_easy.html

No need to retype
We understand that many people already have documents which they have created
using other common office software packages. OpenOffice.org 3 can read these
files with a very high degree of accuracy, making migration to OpenOffice.org 3
very straightforward. In fact, we have reports where OpenOffice.org 3 has been
able to read files which the original software package had said were corrupted
and unusable. If your friends or colleagues use different software, you can
still swap files with them - but better still, give them a free copy of
OpenOffice.org 3! 

This too is crap - the only thing you can swap between people is documents with
people who have the same font sets as produced in that document - on their computer.

AND:

Use it immediately
For people used to other office software, OpenOffice.org 3 is a pleasant
surprise. It's so straightforward! Studies have proved it is easier (and
cheaper) to move to OpenOffice.org 3 from Microsoft Office than it is to upgrade
to Microsoft's latest Office 2007. Because OpenOffice.org is one piece of
software, everything works consistently between applications. Even the help
system is the same. You don't even have to know which application was used to
create a document - OpenOffice.org 3 will use the correct one. You only need to
do a single download from the Internet (or install from one CD) and you've got
your office suite 

You don't have to know which application was used to create a document? That is
until you need to open a document that has been created with different fonts
than the ones available in Open Office.

Then your in REAL trouble.


http://why.openoffice.org/why_free.html

Freedom from worry
However, a free software licence means much more than a one-off cost saving. It
means you never need worry again whether your software is legal, or whether it
will expire some day.

Because the OO folks fail to include font embedding at all, for the fonts used
in the "works" - it means that as soon as that document is produced and is sent
to others or it is archived; it's original content is automatically expired
because it's worthless.


http://why.openoffice.org/why_free.html

We value your freedom
As part of a community dedicated to free software, we also value your freedom of
choice. OpenOffice.org 3 will read and write files which can be used in other
common office software. It was the first software in the world to fully support
the ISO standard for office file formats which is being adopted by a growing
number of software vendors. If you want to use other software, we want you to be
free to do so. If you want to change your PC from Microsoft Windows to Apple Mac
to Linux to Sun Solaris, we want you to be free to do so. If you like this
approach, feel free to join the OpenOffice.org community. 

This FREEDOM spiel is all crap too, I have found that because I have a goodly
font set on my big Windoze machine, with it's huge HDD's and faster processors
etc., when I move or go to continue further work on my teeny ancient Linux
running laptop (Love Ubuntu), as I don't have the 2000+ font set on my laptop,
most of what I created on my Windoze machine, drops from "artistic works" like
trademarks, pamphlets, web graphics etc., back to worthless scraps with the Open
Office default font of Arial 12 point.


The Caveat:

http://why.openoffice.org/why_free.html

Free software
OpenOffice.org 3 is free software. That means you are free to download it, free
to install it on as many PCs as you like, free to pass copies to as many people
as you like. You may use OpenOffice.org 3 for any purpose without restriction: 

You are restricted, and heavily so. It's called product lock in, by default;
because if you can't save what you create in the form that you have created it,
because of the Open Office committee's failure to implement the embedding of the
fonts used, into the documents and works created with those fonts, then you are
restricted.

So unless everything you create using open office is done exclusively in the
Open Office font sets - your work in no longer being the "Work" as created
becomes worthless and they have NO archival value.

Will the Open Office folks fix this insane outcome? I doubt it.

They mount such arguments as:

http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=107456
------- Additional comments from rainerbielefeld Sun Dec 6 11:02:18 +0000 2009
-------

"I have several tools (CAD, PLC programming,...) with various commercial tools
and libraries (and at least one commercial" true type font, for what I signed
that I will not distribute it without permission), and it's completely clear,
that all my creations with those tools will work on other computers only, if all
necessary tools are available on that computer, and most of them can not be
distributed freely (embedded) because
of their license. Those "tools" have to be bought and licensed for each PC
seperately." 

So therefore according to this ONE individual, HIS problems, with his licenses,
that he signed for, ought to be binding upon everyone else on the entire planet,
who will also be using the fonts from the software that they have paid for, or
harvested from all the free sources on the web, or have paid to get CD's with
10,000 or 50,000 free fonts.........

Because of this one mans decision, the people in Open Office sell a lie. 

They say that you cannot produce and keep, with the resources that you have, all
of the documents and works, in the formats that you have created them in, to
share, distribute, to archive or publish or cause to be published, in the as
created format.

Because they refuse to allow you to embed your own fonts into your own works, of
your own creation, now and for all time.

Not good enough.

And what's with OLE objects? OOo should include software for all integrated OLE
objects, so that the document can be edited on other PC without that software.
And for sure, OOo should make available that software for all Platforms and OS
(SNCR).
I also would like to have included fonts, lack of that ability causes some
trouble concerning collaboration for technical documentation I create with OOo,
but currently I do not see any chance that such a function will be integrated
because of well known reasons.

@dogzdik: 
May be a solution could be that you use other software than OOo, that matches
better with your needs?

I don't hate you Rainer, but as it stands, Open Office without FONT embedding as
a default setting (or a decent hack) for the fonts used in that document / work
/ creation etc., It's just like getting a car - from a car yard, up on bricks
with no wheels and no engine; sure you can buy it, sure you can ride around in
it all day - as long as you make the "Broooom Broooom" noises and never leave
the car lot.

I mean the font sets in it are great - love them; and Open Office - as long as
you only use the fonts that came with it - it's fantastic; but I happen to do a
huge variety or work with a large-ish range of fonts - that come from a huge
range of software; I still have my OLD Word Perfect documents I made from 15 
years ago.....

To me it seems as if the embedding of fonts is an end user issue; because
everything in OO is I assume are "free" fonts; everything almost everyone else
has is what they have paid for, with their software and their systems; or they
are free from the net / on computer magazine CD's or purchased from a supplier;

And to me it seems that IF company A has an issue with person B embedding their
own fonts that they paid to use, in company A's software or in using the same
fonts to create the same document in the OO software - I mean like what is the
difference?

They have paid to use that FONT to create the documents that they choose to
create, with the software that they choose to create;

To me it is an end user issue; it's not the place of people in OO to dictate
these terms to the end users.

And along with all the freeware / purchased fonts etc., it's certainly not the
place of the people in OO to dictate that they cannot embed the fonts that they
have obtained / purchased - to place a restriction on the end user.

I tend to view that as a constraint of trade.

What makes you think this is a P1 issue? Read the writing guide line
(http://www.openoffice.org/project/qa/issue_handling/pre_submission.html). Don't
remove CCs! If someone is interested in an issue you should remove is CC. This
is not you're private playground.

As 'of' wrote: please stick to our rules.
- this is not a priority 1 issue
- do not remove others from CC

Still, what makes this issue different from 

http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=20370

?

And by the way, "buying" software typically only means licensing it, with the 
applied restrictions as listed in the EULA. E.g. even if you have "bought" a 
program you may not redistribute it, same holds true for some fonts!

... you guys are writing too much, only a few are willing to read this.

We should stop reporter-troll-feeding here!

the ability of embedding fonts is a FEATURE not a DEFECT

corrected component. subcomponent and issue type

Hey ja@openoffice.org

Ummmmm I'd hate to be looking like an imbeciel who has opinions about everything
and doesn't even have the brains to actually read the facts on the issue I have
raised, and what it is actually all about, but it's NOT that font embedding is a
feature, because the issue is the LACK of font embedding.

I mean you have made yourself look like an utter idiot; but you were also the
one who expressed an opinion without actually having read the back ground
material on it - weren't you.

It's even in the 4 words in the subject line, "NO" font embedding.

So either grow a brain or go show your talent for stupidity else where.

If you think that ignoring basic communication guidelines (like
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html) within an opensource project does
help to get your feature implemented by someone who's willing to evaluate this
then do not wonder that your OpenOffice.org account will get invalidated if you
resist to accept an issue's status and spam unneeded comments to this issue
instead. Please understand this as a warning.

Hey ja@openoffice.org

Firstly - the LACK of font embedding is a defect.

It says so in the subject line.

And that is what is written in the body of the issue - as well as the replies.

Then you come along, YOU didn't even bother to read ANY of it, and then say,
"Ohhh font EMBEDDING is a FEATURE" - and then start messing with the settings.

I call you on that as being a fucking idiot.

Then you snipe back at me with this:

If you think that ignoring basic communication guidelines  within an opensource
project does help to get your feature implemented by someone who's willing to
evaluate this then do not wonder that your OpenOffice.org account will get
invalidated if you resist to accept an issue's status and spam unneeded comments
to this issue instead. Please understand this as a warning.

Let me tell you this ja@openoffice.org - this "group" is one of the most useless
pack of cunts that I have ever seen.

YOUR living proof of that.

Calling you on being a fuckwit - oh no!!!! It's about time that you were.

Do you really think that by this stage of the game, I am really worried by your
threats and idiot analysis with things like; "feature implemented by someone
who's willing to evaluate this".

Well IF I could hack Open Office and release the code to embed the fonts, I would.

And so far not one fucking idiot here has offered to do anything.

AND so that is more of your fucking idiot 2c worth on the subject.

Then when we look at this bit that you wrote, "Your OpenOffice.org account will
get invalidated if you resist to accept an issue's status" blah blah blah blah

Oh no - I have to sit here and wait for usless cunts lke you to do nothing other
that throw out fuckwit statements - that are not even connected to reality -
damn and shit - that is sure going to be a loss on my part - isn't it.

Then you top it off with this, "Please understand this as a warning."

"Oh fuck no- deary me, A warning from an idiot!!!!!"

Let me be the first to tell you this, cause I think you need telling.

"Hey shit for brains - You could not evaluate the hole in your own arse".

Fucking moron.

Troll....

Thanks for the valuable additional input on font embedding. It will be
considered if the original issue 20370 should find attention again. Please
accept that this issue is closed as duplicate and refrain from further
activities outside of our guidelines that are available at
http://qa.openoffice.org/issue_handling/pre_submission.html

*** This issue has been marked as a duplicate of 20370 ***

closing issue as duplicate.